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LightUpTheNight

What constitutes a person's identity?

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Since the topic of platonic love is relevant for asexuals and platonic love is being attracted to "souls" or the mind, what is the mind?

 

@Dreamsexual I remember a topic a while back on AVEN where you talked about being attracted to an idea like when we feel a connection to someone in our dreams. A certain gentleman disagreed, saying he needs their SO to be capable of "shitting, pissing and fucking" for them to love them but we elitists have loftier preferences.

 

So what makes a person's self? What attracts us in others? Ourselves? Parts of ourselves? Is there any wholeness to be found in another half from without if that means we deny half of ourselves from within? Discuss 🙂

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Gosh, what constitutes someone's identity is somewhat above my pay grade!  Folk far more intelligent than I have wrestled with this one forever, and a good chunk of humanity doesn't really believe in some sort of persistent 'self' whatsoever ...

 

But, I might as well throw in my worthless 2p worth, on the understanding that I might well have changed my mind in a few weeks, lol 🙂

 

So, basically, I reckon an individual's ID can be summed up as an 'essential information smear'.

Essential - as I think there is an irreducible 'I' at the core of consciousness; the subjective agent - the 'person' that has qualia.

Information - as there is some set of info which makes you distinct (largely personality traits developed over time, memory and spacio-temporal locality) though it seems to me irrelevant the media through which that information is expressed (I am still basically me whether meat in a physical space, or an avatar in a digital matrix, or a soul in heaven, or whatever).

Smear - as in we exist as storied beings with a narrative and are somewhat spread out in time (we exist in our conscious experience a little behind in time, whilst also in the present physically, whilst also often motivated/aware of the future).  It's not so much that at any singular present exist as an ID, as that our ID is spread across extended portion of time.

 

5 hours ago, LightUpTheNight said:

he needs their SO to be capable of "shitting, pissing and fucking" for them to love them

 

Which is obvious drivel, lol ... Though I personally quite like the third in the list (the other two I would happily do without, just a waste of time).

 

5 hours ago, LightUpTheNight said:

What attracts us in others?

 

I suspect a horribly complex mix of: genetic evolutionary advantageous predispositions (like signs of fertility & health, such as youth); cultural overlay (whether drawn from universal collective unconscious forms or more specific cultures, like a particular skin tone or social status); and personal psychological factors (something missing from childhood/ parents? a teenage crush? a peculiar fetish? etc).  And this probably changes over time, also, just to make it worse.  What we are attracted to is not only half shrouded in mystery and our unconscious, but also shifting sand.

 

5 hours ago, LightUpTheNight said:

Ourselves? Parts of ourselves?

 

To some degree, I think romantic love is part projection.  How much I cannot say, and it likely varies from person to person, time to time.  But a lot of our inner world, love included, is really some portion of ourselves interpreting, dreaming, hallucinating 'onto' the 'real' world - whether collapsing wave functions or merely over-looking faults, blinded by temporary lust.  We likely seek, and see, the good of ourselves in others - whilst also looking, often, for the opposite.  I suspect this is one reason why humans can never truly satisfy each other relationally - we want paradoxical things.

 

5 hours ago, LightUpTheNight said:

Is there any wholeness to be found in another half from without if that means we deny half of ourselves from within?

 

Hmmmmm....  I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.  Can we be complete (in a relationship) without first being complete within ourselves?  No, not fully.  Can we be complete on our own, without a relationship?  No, not fully.  But perfection is a receding goal - unobtainable, anyway.  Most don't even get close to any form of individualised or relational completeness let alone an ideal state.

 

To make matters worse, I think the heterosexual procreation drive, with cultural overlay, as part of a sexually dimorphous species is a great source of our misery - if we 'went beyond' chasing the illusion that a other-human 'partner' could satisfy us, sexually and romantically and relationally, we would be much happier overall (both as a collective and individuals). 

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I feel your core identity allies with something Mao said, give me the boy till he is 7 and I will give you the man.

 

Your core of who you are rarely changes but does have times of investigations, a bit like a film with several endings and you explore all of them before finding the one you like more than the others.

 

The platonic mention is wrongly tied into asexuality. If you define platonic as "a type of love, or close relationship, that is non sexual", then that is a celibate relationship and not an asexual one. Many asexuals have sex, most asexual partners are sexuals. It's that silly circle of asexuality means no sex that rarely goes challenged in the asexual community

 

what attracts us as asexuals to others only has one difference to that of sexuals. Sexuals do not fuck 24 hours a day so there must be other elements than sex that keeps that attraction going for sexuals so in that, we are in total alignment with them

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Sorry for the late reply.

 

On 6/26/2019 at 11:37 AM, PiF said:

The platonic mention is wrongly tied into asexuality. If you define platonic as "a type of love, or close relationship, that is non sexual", then that is a celibate relationship and not an asexual one. Many asexuals have sex, most asexual partners are sexuals. It's that silly circle of asexuality means no sex that rarely goes challenged in the asexual community

 

I agree. The term platonic gets thrown around a lot.

 

On 6/26/2019 at 7:24 AM, Dreamsexual said:

Essential - as I think there is an irreducible 'I' at the core of consciousness; the subjective agent - the 'person' that has qualia.

 

Information - as there is some set of info which makes you distinct (largely personality traits developed over time, memory and spacio-temporal locality) though it seems to me irrelevant the media through which that information is expressed (I am still basically me whether meat in a physical space, or an avatar in a digital matrix, or a soul in heaven, or whatever).

 

Smear - as in we exist as storied beings with a narrative and are somewhat spread out in time (we exist in our conscious experience a little behind in time, whilst also in the present physically, whilst also often motivated/aware of the future).  It's not so much that at any singular present exist as an ID, as that our ID is spread across extended portion of time.

Shadow vs. persona?

 

On 6/26/2019 at 7:24 AM, Dreamsexual said:

I suspect a horribly complex mix of: genetic evolutionary advantageous predispositions (like signs of fertility & health, such as youth); cultural overlay (whether drawn from universal collective unconscious forms or more specific cultures, like a particular skin tone or social status); and personal psychological factors (something missing from childhood/ parents? a teenage crush? a peculiar fetish? etc).  And this probably changes over time, also, just to make it worse.  What we are attracted to is not only half shrouded in mystery and our unconscious, but also shifting sand.

The first two are utilitarian, the others are... still utilitarian, although not quite in the same way. I still believe there is more to it.

Didn't Jung say there's a collective unconscious and a personal unconscious? Those lie in the personal unconscious because they are dependent on context. I believe that when you strip a person's soul "bare" of context, there's something raw underneath all that. That raw thing, which I can't quite describe, is what I think "love of the Soul" is about.

 

On 6/26/2019 at 7:24 AM, Dreamsexual said:

To some degree, I think romantic love is part projection.  How much I cannot say, and it likely varies from person to person, time to time.  But a lot of our inner world, love included, is really some portion of ourselves interpreting, dreaming, hallucinating 'onto' the 'real' world - whether collapsing wave functions or merely over-looking faults, blinded by temporary lust.  We likely seek, and see, the good of ourselves in others - whilst also looking, often, for the opposite.  I suspect this is one reason why humans can never truly satisfy each other relationally - we want paradoxical things.

Still, everything is perception and projection, isn't it? A thought experiment: remember Decartes "I think, therefore I am?". How about a "We think, therefore we are?". Say that Decartes' hypothetical man whose whole reality is all controled by some evil genius meets another hypothetical man in the same situation. How does he know he is real? Well, if Decartes' man is real because he doubts his existence, how can he know the other man is also real? The other man, if he doubt his existance, also knows he is real. Maybe they can talk to each other and talk about this. Still there is no proof this isn't just some illusion created by the evil genius. So... if whatever makes up the first man's mind (brain patterns) matches the other man and he also doubts, that means they are both real. Still they can't know if they are talking to a mirror.

Hypothetically you'd need a 3rd consciousness to validate the existence of the two. There is some theory that a system cannot prove itself, it needs an outside system to prove itself, something like that... this would be one of those situations.

 

For example, in Serial Experiments Lain, Lain is the "God" of the Wired (a kind of collective consciousness). She decides to erase herself from existence by erasing herself from everybody's minds. In the end, she still exists, and is talking to another Lain. How? I asked on reddit and someone told me this comes from some Eastern belief that there is a soul that observes and one that is observed.

 

Say the soul has these two hypothetical splits... these two men can validate each other's existence if the part of each other's soul that observes can observe the other's part that is observed... in other words, they can only know that their idea of the other man is real by observing from the outside. If... the parts of each man's minds that say "I think, therefore I am" could somehow rise to another plane of existence and talk to each other there, and observe from the outside... does this make sense?

 

On 6/26/2019 at 7:24 AM, Dreamsexual said:

Hmmmmm....  I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.  Can we be complete (in a relationship) without first being complete within ourselves?  No, not fully.  Can we be complete on our own, without a relationship?  No, not fully.

Can we ever really be complete then?

 

On 6/26/2019 at 7:24 AM, Dreamsexual said:

To make matters worse, I think the heterosexual procreation drive, with cultural overlay, as part of a sexually dimorphous species is a great source of our misery - if we 'went beyond' chasing the illusion that a other-human 'partner' could satisfy us, sexually and romantically and relationally, we would be much happier overall (both as a collective and individuals). 

I agree.

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I don't know enough Jung to really say what he would have made of this ...

But I'm confident with saying that Descartes got it slightly wrong with the cogito - really, the only thing that can be known is 'there are thoughts'.  Whether there is an I having them is arguable.

 

I have no real answers to this stuff ... 🙂

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Well hello there, spam bot.

 

What constitutes a personality/a soul? Everything that makes you you. Your likes and dislikes, your love and aesthetic, your fears and phobias and all forms of neurodivergence. The words you use, the foods you prefer and your emotional reactions. The way you see the world, literally and figuratively. All this is partly innate, partly formed by the life you lead and its wonders and battles, the people around you and how you react to it. You are every thought you think and every emotion you feel - even if they don't seem logical at times, all of this is a fraction of you, and it's there for a reason.

The most fundamental part of an identity must be the way someone's mind works - you won't find two people on this world who think exactly alike, and that's the beauty of it, that is you. Where it comes from, I can not tell for sure. Different belief systems certainly have different ways to explain it, and I know what I believe; but that may just not be important to you. Because, in the end, you do you 😉

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6 hours ago, CelesteAdAstra said:

Different belief systems certainly have different ways to explain it, and I know what I believe; but that may just not be important to you.

Really good answer. Now I am curious, what do you believe in?

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20 hours ago, LightUpTheNight said:

Really good answer. Now I am curious, what do you believe in?

 

I am a pagan and I believe that I have been reincarnated many times, so the "essence" of my soul has always been the same, with the obvious changes that time brings. Within this frame, I also believe that I am working on myself from life to life, and I am continually refining this "me". I don't believe that anyone has specifically created me, but rather that I create myself as I go.

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1 hour ago, CelesteAdAstra said:

 

I am a pagan and I believe that I have been reincarnated many times, so the "essence" of my soul has always been the same, with the obvious changes that time brings. Within this frame, I also believe that I am working on myself from life to life, and I am continually refining this "me". I don't believe that anyone has specifically created me, but rather that I create myself as I go.

I am not a pagan but I like your views. I don't know if you believe in the paranormal or not but I am inclined to think what happens is something like what you describe but in a way that can be scientifically explained.

 

Check out this comic

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

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